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	<title>Comments on: China&#8217;s plan?: Burn coal to make renewables for us</title>
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	<link>http://www.cejournal.net/?p=2666</link>
	<description>News &#38; Perspective from the Center for Environmental Journalism</description>
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		<title>By: Christof</title>
		<link>http://www.cejournal.net/?p=2666&#038;cpage=1#comment-5675</link>
		<dc:creator>Christof</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:54:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ooops, I see, the Share button is only on the Front page, not at the end of the full-length article. I came into the article through RSS, so I never saw the front-page. Don&#039;t know if that happens a lot, but having the share button on the full-length article too couldn&#039;t hurt...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ooops, I see, the Share button is only on the Front page, not at the end of the full-length article. I came into the article through RSS, so I never saw the front-page. Don&#8217;t know if that happens a lot, but having the share button on the full-length article too couldn&#8217;t hurt&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Christof</title>
		<link>http://www.cejournal.net/?p=2666&#038;cpage=1#comment-5674</link>
		<dc:creator>Christof</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:51:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cejournal.net/?p=2666#comment-5674</guid>
		<description>Tom, Nice post. Wish more Americans actually connected the dots. We voraciously consume cheap goods from China, which fires its economic engines mostly with coal, and then we blame &quot;them&quot; for global warming -- without seeing that our consumption plays a huge role in pumping up China&#039;s CO2 and other toxic emissions (it&#039;s not just about the CO2!)

BTW, you should add a &quot;Share This&quot; button to your posts/pages -- it would make it easier to Tweet them, post them to Facebook etc. (I&#039;m going to tweet this post, BTW).

--christof</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom, Nice post. Wish more Americans actually connected the dots. We voraciously consume cheap goods from China, which fires its economic engines mostly with coal, and then we blame &#8220;them&#8221; for global warming &#8212; without seeing that our consumption plays a huge role in pumping up China&#8217;s CO2 and other toxic emissions (it&#8217;s not just about the CO2!)</p>
<p>BTW, you should add a &#8220;Share This&#8221; button to your posts/pages &#8212; it would make it easier to Tweet them, post them to Facebook etc. (I&#8217;m going to tweet this post, BTW).</p>
<p>&#8211;christof</p>
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		<title>By: China&#8230;ugh</title>
		<link>http://www.cejournal.net/?p=2666&#038;cpage=1#comment-5649</link>
		<dc:creator>China&#8230;ugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 21:15:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cejournal.net/?p=2666#comment-5649</guid>
		<description>[...] An interesting piece from CEJournal on China&#8217;s role at Copenhagen and a cynical view of China&#8217;s future influence on climate and renewables markets. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] An interesting piece from CEJournal on China&#8217;s role at Copenhagen and a cynical view of China&#8217;s future influence on climate and renewables markets. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: googler</title>
		<link>http://www.cejournal.net/?p=2666&#038;cpage=1#comment-5643</link>
		<dc:creator>googler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 12:13:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cejournal.net/?p=2666#comment-5643</guid>
		<description>Tom - for the record there is some debate as to the reality of the threat faced by the Maldives. For example:

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/19/despite-popular-opinion-and-calls-to-action-the-maldives-is-not-being-overrun-by-sea-level-rise/

In the comments Andy Revkin said it was an issue that he would revisit but I don&#039;t know if he did.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom &#8211; for the record there is some debate as to the reality of the threat faced by the Maldives. For example:</p>
<p><a href="http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/19/despite-popular-opinion-and-calls-to-action-the-maldives-is-not-being-overrun-by-sea-level-rise/" rel="nofollow">http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/19/despite-popular-opinion-and-calls-to-action-the-maldives-is-not-being-overrun-by-sea-level-rise/</a></p>
<p>In the comments Andy Revkin said it was an issue that he would revisit but I don&#8217;t know if he did.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Yulsman</title>
		<link>http://www.cejournal.net/?p=2666&#038;cpage=1#comment-5639</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Yulsman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 01:27:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Googler: As you probably know, island nations were quite outspoken in Copenhagen about the need to reduce greenhouse emissions enough to limit global warming to no more than 1.5 degrees C above pre-industrial levels. Their fear, of course, is that if the 1.5 degree C threshold is passed, sea level would rise and eventually wipe out island nations such as the Maldives. So my somewhat cynical scenario is that the Chinese said all the right things about the impact of global warming on developing nations but in the end torpedoed the very agreement that the Maldivians and other island nations said was necessary to preserve their very existence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Googler: As you probably know, island nations were quite outspoken in Copenhagen about the need to reduce greenhouse emissions enough to limit global warming to no more than 1.5 degrees C above pre-industrial levels. Their fear, of course, is that if the 1.5 degree C threshold is passed, sea level would rise and eventually wipe out island nations such as the Maldives. So my somewhat cynical scenario is that the Chinese said all the right things about the impact of global warming on developing nations but in the end torpedoed the very agreement that the Maldivians and other island nations said was necessary to preserve their very existence.</p>
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		<title>By: googler</title>
		<link>http://www.cejournal.net/?p=2666&#038;cpage=1#comment-5635</link>
		<dc:creator>googler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 19:50:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cejournal.net/?p=2666#comment-5635</guid>
		<description>Tom - what is this based on? :&quot;Meanwhile, the Maldivians drown.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom &#8211; what is this based on? :&#8221;Meanwhile, the Maldivians drown.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Raven</title>
		<link>http://www.cejournal.net/?p=2666&#038;cpage=1#comment-5628</link>
		<dc:creator>Raven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Dec 2009 16:52:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cejournal.net/?p=2666#comment-5628</guid>
		<description>Thanks for acknowledging the elephant in the room. For years I have believed that anti-CO2 regulations will ultimately fail unless they are based on a single global price for carbon emissions. Any single country or group of countries that tried to go it alone would simply see industry relocate because relocation is invariably cheaper than reducing emissions.

Tariffs are not an answer because a lot of rich world industry depends on importing components/raw materials from elsewhere. A fairly assessed tariff on their inputs would be yet another incentive to move to a juristiction with no such tariffs.

I think peak/expensive oil will ultimately bring the necessary shift to rewenables where government regulation fails because everybody pays the same price for oil. People praying for a &#039;pearl harbor&#039; to galvanize public opinion should be asking for peak oil.

Lastly, energy is like food. It is prerequisite for all other types of economic activity. If energy or food costs go up and consume a larger percentage of GDP then the standard of living/prosperity will go down. This is unavoidable law of economics as far as I am concerned. Better efficiency can only offset higher energy prices if it can reduce energy bills back to what they were before the price increase. For that reason the only path to &quot;prosperity and jobs&quot; with renewable energy is a path that finds renewables that can compete in *free* market with the *global* cost of fossil fuel energy. That is technically impossible with current fossil fuel prices and renewable technology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for acknowledging the elephant in the room. For years I have believed that anti-CO2 regulations will ultimately fail unless they are based on a single global price for carbon emissions. Any single country or group of countries that tried to go it alone would simply see industry relocate because relocation is invariably cheaper than reducing emissions.</p>
<p>Tariffs are not an answer because a lot of rich world industry depends on importing components/raw materials from elsewhere. A fairly assessed tariff on their inputs would be yet another incentive to move to a juristiction with no such tariffs.</p>
<p>I think peak/expensive oil will ultimately bring the necessary shift to rewenables where government regulation fails because everybody pays the same price for oil. People praying for a &#8216;pearl harbor&#8217; to galvanize public opinion should be asking for peak oil.</p>
<p>Lastly, energy is like food. It is prerequisite for all other types of economic activity. If energy or food costs go up and consume a larger percentage of GDP then the standard of living/prosperity will go down. This is unavoidable law of economics as far as I am concerned. Better efficiency can only offset higher energy prices if it can reduce energy bills back to what they were before the price increase. For that reason the only path to &#8220;prosperity and jobs&#8221; with renewable energy is a path that finds renewables that can compete in *free* market with the *global* cost of fossil fuel energy. That is technically impossible with current fossil fuel prices and renewable technology.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Yulsman</title>
		<link>http://www.cejournal.net/?p=2666&#038;cpage=1#comment-5614</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Yulsman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Dec 2009 02:40:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cejournal.net/?p=2666#comment-5614</guid>
		<description>Now that Copenhagen has failed, I&#039;d like to see more reporting on alternative approaches. And examination of the potential strengths and weaknesses of a carbon tax would be high on my list.

We already know that a carbon tax would be honest and straightforward, and it would not be subject to the kind of gaming of the system that we might well see with cap-and-trade. Of course it&#039;s supposed to be politically impossible. And if we keep listening exclusively to inside-the-Beltway political reporters, that&#039;s all we&#039;ll ever hear. But what if reporters with a different perspective were to get to work on the issue? What if they spoke with experts as well as ordinary citizens outside of Washington? 

How might a carbon tax that was instituted gradually and sold as a spur to innovation be received? How would Americans respond to a policy that could theoretically help our country lead the ET revolution that we know is coming whether we decide to participate or not?

If it were framed this way and structured correctly ( the revenues used for R&amp;D and for rebates to incentivize efficiency), why would it automatically be political suicide? Aside from coal companies, who is really fond of coal — and the air pollution, water pollution, arsenic and mercury contamination, mountaintop removal, etc. that it brings? Who is not in favor of efficiency, innovation, and creating a whole new economic sector that can lead the way toward job growth and prosperity?

But I know, I&#039;m naive and therefore fail to realize that arguing for such a thing is political suicide.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now that Copenhagen has failed, I&#8217;d like to see more reporting on alternative approaches. And examination of the potential strengths and weaknesses of a carbon tax would be high on my list.</p>
<p>We already know that a carbon tax would be honest and straightforward, and it would not be subject to the kind of gaming of the system that we might well see with cap-and-trade. Of course it&#8217;s supposed to be politically impossible. And if we keep listening exclusively to inside-the-Beltway political reporters, that&#8217;s all we&#8217;ll ever hear. But what if reporters with a different perspective were to get to work on the issue? What if they spoke with experts as well as ordinary citizens outside of Washington? </p>
<p>How might a carbon tax that was instituted gradually and sold as a spur to innovation be received? How would Americans respond to a policy that could theoretically help our country lead the ET revolution that we know is coming whether we decide to participate or not?</p>
<p>If it were framed this way and structured correctly ( the revenues used for R&#038;D and for rebates to incentivize efficiency), why would it automatically be political suicide? Aside from coal companies, who is really fond of coal — and the air pollution, water pollution, arsenic and mercury contamination, mountaintop removal, etc. that it brings? Who is not in favor of efficiency, innovation, and creating a whole new economic sector that can lead the way toward job growth and prosperity?</p>
<p>But I know, I&#8217;m naive and therefore fail to realize that arguing for such a thing is political suicide.</p>
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		<title>By: John Zulauf</title>
		<link>http://www.cejournal.net/?p=2666&#038;cpage=1#comment-5611</link>
		<dc:creator>John Zulauf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Dec 2009 22:52:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cejournal.net/?p=2666#comment-5611</guid>
		<description>I think you&#039;ve hit the nail on the thumb here.  Hobbling ourselves unilaterally won&#039;t help the climate.  The Chinese have chosen for humanity, and no amount of Western self-loathing can change that.  Now, if we *really* cared about carbon, we&#039;d impose carbon tariffs -- but there&#039;s no political will for this.  Cheap stuff from Walmart has become our &quot;bread and circuses.&quot;  We want it cheap and we want it now.

Let&#039;s face it, we&#039;ve outsourced pollution for decades. We&#039;ve over-regulated ourselves into an uncompetitive oblivion, while not reducing the actual pollutant footprint per dollar of goods bought and sold in the US.  What we&#039;ve also done is outsource our sovereignty, where now China sets the ecologic policy for *us*.

The only optimistic possibility is that China will eventually face their own issues that the US faced at the end of the &#039;70&#039;s (dead great lakes, rivers on fire, etc.) and will be forced to reassess it&#039;s choices.

The only question is, will we even be relevant?  We won&#039;t if we continue to hobble ourselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you&#8217;ve hit the nail on the thumb here.  Hobbling ourselves unilaterally won&#8217;t help the climate.  The Chinese have chosen for humanity, and no amount of Western self-loathing can change that.  Now, if we *really* cared about carbon, we&#8217;d impose carbon tariffs &#8212; but there&#8217;s no political will for this.  Cheap stuff from Walmart has become our &#8220;bread and circuses.&#8221;  We want it cheap and we want it now.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s face it, we&#8217;ve outsourced pollution for decades. We&#8217;ve over-regulated ourselves into an uncompetitive oblivion, while not reducing the actual pollutant footprint per dollar of goods bought and sold in the US.  What we&#8217;ve also done is outsource our sovereignty, where now China sets the ecologic policy for *us*.</p>
<p>The only optimistic possibility is that China will eventually face their own issues that the US faced at the end of the &#8217;70&#8242;s (dead great lakes, rivers on fire, etc.) and will be forced to reassess it&#8217;s choices.</p>
<p>The only question is, will we even be relevant?  We won&#8217;t if we continue to hobble ourselves.</p>
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